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Getting a ticket... - Tal - 06-24-2003
Hand signals for right of way have been disallowed in many states precisely because they can be so easily misinterpreted. She could have just as easily been trying to wave a fly out of her face - which may be why she started to roll forward. And I agree with what Roland has already stated so eloquently - waved or not, he still did not yield properly and drove aggressively.
Getting a ticket... - kandrathe - 06-24-2003
Having now been a driver for a few decades, I must say it is all a wash. I think it would be at least worthwhile to go to court and have your say in front of the traffic judge. You or your dad might be able to speak with the prosecutor in advance to explain the situation from your POV, but in general I've found that if you are honest, the judge will cut you a little slack, sometimes. I always try to go, as I feel it is best to excercise ones rights within the legal system, and there is also a small chance the officer will not show up and the case will be dismissed.
Maybe you didn't feel you deserved the treatment that was given to you by this cold hearted officer. But, you will in the long run be guilty of far more violations than you will ever be ticketed for. There are only a few that I've gotten that I had any disputes with.
But next time, when you see that there is a cop around, drive like the grandma.
Getting a ticket... - Roland - 06-24-2003
Quote:But next time, when you see that there is a cop around, drive like the grandma.
Drive like you are supposed to. That is all, nothing more and nothing less. Too fast, too aggressive, too reckless, and you are guilty of breaking the law. Too slow, too cautious, and you are again guilty of breaking the law. The goal is not one extreme or the other, but the happy medium that is (supposed to be) taught to us all during our education in driving.
A cop is just as likely to pull you over for driving too slowly as for driving too quickly. And believe me, a cop hates having an unreasonably slow driver in front of him/her just as much as we all do. I've passed cops in the lefthand (and righthand) lane numerous times, all while driving no different than I would have if they weren't there. I was even speeding by about 5 M.P.H. or so, and he didn't even blink. Poor guy was stuck behind someone in the right who slowed down considerably when the cop got behind him, and no one else would pass the cop on the left, save me. And you know what? All the cop was doing was returning to the state police barracks, probably from his lunch break. :P
Use your head. Use common sense. And do what you're SUPPOSED to do, and TAUGHT to do. Do that, and you'll hardly EVER have trouble with cops - no matter how many times you cross paths.
Getting a ticket... - kandrathe - 06-24-2003
Sure. But, from what he described she merely hesitated a moment before entering the intersection. Prudent, especially if you've ever driven in NYC, Rome, or Athens. Had I hesitated a few times early on, I might not have lost two cars to being "right" in terms of the right of way, but wrong in terms of safety.
At least where I live, cops tend to pick on the more aggressive drivers. If you are cautious (even overly so) and not breaking the law, they usually leave you alone. Even the freeways here post a 40mph minimum speed, however most consider that suicide and just waiting to be rear ended.
Getting a ticket... - Swarmalicious - 06-24-2003
...when I was pulled over last year, and asked if I knew why, I sheepishly answered, "Yeah, I was totally flying... sorry about that". I was attempting to bring a sort of hey-there-chum-we-all-do-it-from-time-to-time element to the situation.
However, 10 minutes later the cop returned to my car with a ticket, and a carbon-copied sheet, which had a short transcript of our conversation on it. He told me it gets submitted in the event that I plead not guilty. It even had some kind of official title (which I can't remember, dammit).
Maybe its a new supplement to their 'expert witness' testimony... I dunno. I didn't imagine it though.
Getting a ticket... - MonTy - 06-24-2003
*edit* aggressive.. that's two s, not one.
Hail all,
I appreciate all the comments. Though I don't see how I was driving aggressively.
I made eye contact with the lady, and she clearly waved me to go. She started to go when the passenger side of my car was near her. I stepped on the gas so I could avoid a accident. If I hit the brakes, she might have nailed my car. When I look back at the incident, it seems (I hope) she hit the gas pedel by accident.
Why was that aggressive driving? People wave eachother all the time over here in hamptons, NY. The cars in back of you get angry if someone was letting you go, but you didn't take the opportunity.
Everyone likes to drive with me, I've been told countless times I'm a great driver. I don't feel this incident was my fault.
Roland, this is for you:
Quote:I'm sure you'll be mad at ME too now, but it will be for naught. Read what I wrote, and at least attempt to derive from it the reasons behind your punishment. You asked a question, and I gave the answer, even if you don't like it or agree with it.
Don't assume. All I can be is grateful for you posting a long and informative reply like that. What makes me sick is you assuming I will. Please don't.
Getting a ticket... - kandrathe - 06-24-2003
Ah, well. Sometimes you are just being an idiot. :D The cops job is to enforce the law and collect the evidence. If you think about it, it is a rock and a hard place situation. Either, "No, Officer, I am totally unaware of anything going on around me, or even whatever stupid thing I might be doing." Or, "Sure, copper, I was snorting coke, driving about 17 miles over the limit, with the partially decayed body of a wise guy in my trunk. What's it to you?" I always find something silly, because it doesn't matter what you say. Just don't give away anything. The only exception I've seen is my wife, who always bursts into a flood of tears when she gets pulled over. 50% of the time they just send her on her way.
Officer: "Do you know why I stopped you?"
Me: "I must have violated one of the laws, right?" Duh! :D
Getting a ticket... - Occhidiangela - 06-24-2003
Non standard hand signals, then the officer observed you cutting off the lady coming the other way.
If it boils down to he said, she said in court, the officer, as a trained professional, is more likely to get the Judge's ear. Best of luck if you try to fight it, you may not be holding a winning hand.
Getting a ticket... - Roland - 06-24-2003
You hit the gas. That is generally construed as "aggressive driving" - a vague term that encompasses a lot of ground. Most common (and notable) examples of "agressive driving" are heavy acceleration (even if you never go one iota over the speed limit, posted or otherwise), peeling out, breaking rapidly (as opposed to gradually slowing), cutting in front of people, taking turns at an unsafe speed, etc. Like I said, a somewhat vague expression that covers much ground. Common sense teaches you most of that ground, but occasionally "agressive driving" can be construed as something you might not think of right away.
The problem with your situation is that any number of factors have a great impact on the outcome of the situation - whether you were at fault or not. If she was driving forward, as though you were not there, then that is a point in your favor, potentially (but not necessarily). However, if she was merely rolling forward, anticipating your departure by the time she got anywhere near you (which, though it may not be technically illegal, is certainly something to frown upon, no matter how much any of us does it, cops included), then your reaction (speeding up) was rash and uncalled for, thus why it would be held against you. OTOH, had she hit you, there's still a very good chance you would be found at least partially at fault (see the story about my friend I layed out in an earlier post), for the sole reason that regardless of anything else she has the right of way. Now, whether you are FOUND to be partially / equally at fault or not is entirely up to the officer to decide.
It's a very sketchy issue, with hardly any clear-cut factors. One thing is for certain, though - you got ticketed, twice. One ticket is contestible, but the fact that you got two from the same incident leads me, at the very least, to believe that the officer was at least partially in the right, even if you don't see it. It is, of course, impossible for me to make any firm decision as to your guilt or innocence, and would be moot regardless - I was not there, so my opinion can only be based on 2nd or even 3rd hand accounts, and is therefore irrelevant. Even so, from the sound of it, as I've said already I think the officer was at least partially, if not fully, justified in her rulings.
You raise the question of "How was I driving aggressively?" My answers is several: a) you did not yield, in any fashion (not that you had many choices, even if you HAD yielded), to the approaching car who had the right of way; B) you "hit the gas", to use your own words, rather than continuing at your original speed, or slowing down to anticipate the approaching vehicle and the overall situation; c) you pulled out, into a left-hand turn, without first yielding to the potential for the oncoming traffic, who had the right of way (correct me if I am wrong on this; it SOUNDS like you didn't wait very long after the light turned green, but since I wasn't there, only you'd be able to clarify that issue). All of these factors, with potentially more, lead to the view that you were driving aggressively. Most people don't understand the term because they (myself included; lord do I ever drive aggressively ;)) commit it so many times each time they get into their car that the idea of anything else is simply foreign to them - they're so used to driving like that that they never stop to consider what they're doing is in fact illegal. It's a great big gray area, and is always left up to the officer on hand to decide guilt or innocence in the matter - after all, it IS hard to specify just where the line between acceptible and aggressive driving behavoir can be drawn, and it would be foolish to try and draw that line in any case. :)
One thing I am curious about, though: just what WERE you ticketed for? You told us how you recieved two tickets, but you never actually detailed the REASONS behind them. You explained the situation, but even that only gives a vague impression of what COULD be the reasoning behind the tickets. What, precisely, did they state? And did the officer give any sort of clarification as to why she pulled you over, and why you were being ticketed? And for what reasons each ticket was being issued? I'd actually be surprised if you didn't question the officer on these matters at the time of the incident - but, then again, I guess it's not common practice for people to just up and question an officer when they get pulled over. I myself am a very curious individual, so it is only befitting that I try and find out as much about the incident as I can. But, then, the only time I ever got a ticket I was fully guilty, and fully aware of it, so there was nothing to question. ;) Yes, I've gotten a ticket. A speeding ticket, no less - 87 in a 65 zone. Long story, but the short version is I got into a major accident a few days prior, and the incident left me VERY shaken up. As such, I refused to take my eyes off the road for even a milisecond - not even to check my speedometer. That, combined with a paralyzing fear of being within 100+ feet of ANY other vehicle led me to try racing past an individual on my way home (I was visiting a friend up in Maine when I got into the accident; the return trip 3 days later was when I got the ticket), and it just so happened to occur right by a cop in waiting. :) I actually got off quite lucky - the gentlemen was polite but official about it. And, he didn't ticket me for anything else. I had a majorly busted headlight on the front left, to the point where, although the light worked, it could not be held in place - thus it would shine off in random directions as it dangled from its old socket by the wires. He informed me of this, and I told him I was well aware of it, and that it had just happened a few days prior, and that I was getting it taken care of the very first chance I got after I got home. He didn't say anything further on the matter, and incidently did not ticket me for it (lord knows he could have).
Now, if you want a REAL trip with cops, try getting pulled over just after leaving the Border Patrol (or whatever the hell it's called) on a return trip from Canada. Talk about unnerving. :P Fortunately, if memory serves, they were just pulling me over because of my headlight (which happened to be acting like a spotlight at the time - I bet I woke up a few people as the light shone into their bedroom windows! ;)). Still, after the hassle I got at the border, combined with the fact that I now had 2 (or was it 3? I forget) police cruisers pulling me over, along with my recent accident, I was NOT in the best frame of mind. :) I got off scott-free (not that I really did anything wrong; my headlight I couldn't do anything about anyway, but again, I told them it was going to be taken care of just as soon as I got home), but at the time I was seating bullets. Mostly because the officer pulled me out of my car and took me back to his cruiser! Well, not LITERALLY pulled me - he just asked me to step out, and follow him to his cruiser. My friend, concerned how he was, would not stop blabbering, and so the cop thought there might be something going on, so he wanted to talk to me alone. I assured him everything was fine, and that my friend just gets nervous around cops and was trying to be helpful - which was actually true; I think he might have been even more scared than I was! ;) A few minutes later and I was on my way, but the whole experience was certainly one I'll remember for a long time. :)
Anyway, I hope I cleared up any further confusion. Do tell us (or at least me) how things turn out. I'd be interested to hear more, about the outcome as well as more on the initial incident.
(P.S. - Why the hell is the Lounge giving me so much trouble lately? It's virtually impossible to make a post these days!)
Getting a ticket... - MonTy - 06-24-2003
Hail Roland,
Quote: You hit the gas.- Yes I did, to avoid an accident. But it sure wouldn't look good to a cop for me to be speeding out of a near-accident.
From all the people I've talked to, they have said I am legally wrong since the lady still has the right of way- even if she waved me to go. I'm 99% sure she did wave to me- she noticed me turning and waited there. Then out of nowhere she hits the brake as I'm half way through the turn. But this still would not have happend if I followed the proper rules and waited untill traffic cleared up, so I can't blame this on someone else. I'm just happy I wasn't in an accident.
Quote:One thing I am curious about, though: just what WERE you ticketed for?
I'm still curious too, since I can't read her hand writing- and nobody that I've showed the ticket to can fully read both tickets. I could barely even read her printed name or where to go for the ticket (had someone tell me). One ticket says very scrambled failed to yield at highway Left Turn . The street I was on is called a highway, but doesn't seem like one. It's in town and you can only go 35 mph. On the other ticket, I can only make out the word dangerous. I have to go down there on the 14th of july to set a date, and figure out what they officially say.
My co-worker has the same last name as the cop that pulled me over, my boss's brother is a local cop, a college buddy's aunt is a current local judge, and someone I know is a retired judge- yet I havn't said anything to these people. Something is stopping me. I hate it when other people get off easy just because they have more money and/or friends. So if I get off easy, I'll be doing the same thing as the other people I hate. My father did talk to a family cop a few towns over, but he can't do anything about it. Not sure if I would have wanted him to do something though, feel like my guilt would eat me alive. I would rather go to court and fight this thing, and win. But I may feel different if I lose =/
As for what I said to the cop, very little. I've always been told to say as little as possible, and be polite. Don't say officer, but sir or mam. I asked if she saw the lady wave at me, and she agreed, but she said I still caused a dangerous situation and almost an accident. Anything else I would have said would have been backed by anger or confusion, so I kept quiet.
Lets see if my conscience keeps at me, and I don't try to get out easy.
Getting a ticket... - Roland - 06-24-2003
Failure to yield - she busted you on that one. Much as I don't want to pile any more crap onto your plate than what you're already dealing with, she's got you clean and fair on that one. And, unless I'm really off my rocker, you don't argue that point.
Dangerous...? - from the sound of it, it's in the same vein as my guess of aggressive driving. Can't say for sure, of course, but that's my guess. It sounds like it would fit, but there's still plenty of other options that "dangerous" could fit into. ;)
I, like you, am just glad you didn't have an accident. If you think you're in trouble now, just think if you HAD been in an accident. When I had mine, I actually got off lucky - I hit the guardrail, instead of rear-ending the person in front of me. Long story short, 65 M.P.H. became 0 in an instant, and I mean DEAD stop in no time flat. I was a hair beyond locking up my brakes, and I hit a patch of snow (it had snowed heavily the prior day, but the sun combined with warm air melted all but the plow piles away - and that was all that was left: a pile along the guardrail; a big chunk, about 6 feet wide, had melted enough to slide into the road, thus covering a good portion of the lefthand land; they were also doing construction on the breakdown lane, or some such, so the 3-lane highway was reduced to 2 lanes, although traffic wasn't slowed - just cramped). That was it for me. Instant spinout. Maybe, had I been a much more experienced driver, I could have gotten out of it, or at least avoiding slamming the guardrail. As it were, I couldn't / didn't get out, and ended up spinning right into the guardrail. I counted myself lucky - there was no chance in hell I could have stopped in time to avoid rear-ending the person in front of me. And I was going the speed limit, and at a reasonable distance (you could park 3 cars inbetween me and the car in front of me, easily). It just happened too fast. And, just my luck, it happened RIGHT in front of a cop. Apparently, I wasn't the only one, as at least one person in front of me (several cars up, and what I later believed to be the initial cause for the whole ruckus, since at the time I couldn't see past the one car) and at least two, and probably three or more cars behind me all spun out and/or hit something. The worst part was when some guy in a big pickup tried to say I hit his car. Man, I don't know what happened with that, but I remember looking in my rearview and seeing the cop standing on his toes, and from the looks of it screaming at the guy. Only thing I hit was the guardrail, and the cop didn't dispute it any. I didn't get to see the damage until some time later when I pulled into a rest stop, but let me tell you, I damn near broke down and cried. And I do NOT cry. I think I would have taken losing a limb better than I took seeing the front end of my car. It STILL makes me cringe beyond belief - but, then, I loved that car, like it was family instead of steel and plastic.
Accidents are NO fun, and typically (at least, I think) are a LOT worse than a ticket, at least when it comes to insurance. Although, Mass. recently (a few years back) instituted a 3-strikes policy - 3 tickets, and your license is gone. Not to mention each ticket will jack your insurance rates up by near to $1,000. Not a pretty sight. After everything, I must be damn lucky. Neither my accident nor my speeding ticket has ever affected my insurance. I pay ~$1400 a year, IIRC. And I'm a male, under the age of 24. That's about half of what numerous people (male AND female) I know have to pay. They sure ain't the best company, but they're cheap enough, even if it is only basic insurance (originally was about $1800; it's gone down by about a hundred or so each year). I tell ya, Mass. living ain't cheap.
Like I said, keep me informed, if you want. I'd be interested to hear what the officer has to say, at the very least. As for you using your friends to get you off the hook, while I stand on the same side of the line as you do on that moral dilemma, you might just want to think about asking them their opinions, if nothing else, on the whole scenario and the outcome. Always best to be armed when going into a battle, of any kind, and knowledge is the most powerful weapon you can have. At the very least, it might give you a better understanding behind the officer's thoughts, even if it's not quite the same. *shrug* Just my two cents. Like I said, I'm a curious bugger - I'll ask just about anything of anyone. ;)
Getting a ticket... - Tydon - 06-25-2003
kandrathe,Jun 24 2003, 07:31 AM Wrote:That is a myth. The police officer is an expert witness to your violation. Whilst you are merely a driver. The courts will favor the expert witness over you.Reply: Actually, no, when the "expert witness" can use a tool to enhance the accuracy, (such as a radar), they must use it. If a officer is not able to show a radar showing YOU how fast you were going, then, by the courts assumptions, he does not have proof you went that fast. You see, if you dont stop at a stop sign, thats a black and white law, he saw you, you know you did it. Speeding is not black and white, were you going over, by how much, what was the speed limit, I dont think I was, etc etc. Officers have to use all their resources to be considered that "expert witness" otherwise courts treat them as just a average guy.
As for the general topic: I cannot see why she would issue the ticket for failure to yield when she says she saw the lady give you the hand signal. Most likely in court THIS will be overturned. The dangerous driving, anytime you slam on the gas, that can be seen as dangerous, and you deserved that under the law, and will not be overturned.
Getting a ticket... - kandrathe - 06-25-2003
You have a point with subjective evaluation of speed if the officer is standing outside of the car, and you drive by him doing 42 in a 40. But, if he is following you, radar is irrelevant. Also, if you are obviously going extremely beyond the posted speed, he as an expert can testify to his estimation of your speed. If it is a posted 30 mph zone, and he claims you were driving in excess of 60 mph. The court will tend to accept the assessment of the officer. If they do use radar, then they do tend to show you the result, mostly I surmise to convince you to just pay the fine.
I once got a ticket for driving 50 in a 55 MPH zone. Radar was useless. It was literally monsoon conditions, where you could not see 100 feet in front of you. I was late for work, and young and very stupid.
Getting a ticket... - Yrrek - 06-25-2003
From what I took from his original story was that he was already in the middle of the turn when she started moving, which would put her in fault. I may be wrong, but you are saying that he should have stopped or slowed down, which would have almost assuredly caused an accident. Just my thought.
Getting a ticket... - Yrrek - 06-25-2003
EDIT: Annoying double post.
Getting a ticket... - Roland - 06-25-2003
Or haven't you read all my posts? In that event, there's a good chance she would be at fault IF SHE HIT HIM. If she didn't, which she did NOT, he would still be at fault. And, even if she did hit him, there's still a CHANCE that he would be found at least partially at fault.
The rules are simple: left-hand turns do NOT get the right of way until ALL other vehicles have cleared their path. Even then, if someone is approaching, unless you can complete the turn in time enough so that the approaching car does not even have to slow down (yes, that is the legal line - if a car has to slow down in order for you to complete a turn, you cut them off; pretty strict, huh?), you will still not have the right of way.
Whether it is enforced like that or not is dependent on the officer. However, regardless of how it is ENFORCED, that is how it is WRITTEN. But that's the problem - not everyone upholds the laws to the same standards, which creates the confusion we've been discussing in this entire thread.
Bottom line - he didn't have the right of way. Simple as that, nothing can be argued about it. When it comes to traffic cases, right-of-way is generally the arbiter of the law. If you didn't have the right of way, you pretty much don't have a case in your favor.