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This world is not ours - jahcs - 05-19-2005
Wow, this thread continues to evolve.
Most of the folks I've met that say they are anarchists are, in my opinion, better defined as radical independent libertarians that may have the desire to act out against the system violently.
As Occhi said, in many cases Revolutionary or Activist would be a word better suited to examples like Rosa Parks and George Washington.
Rosa Parks and many others fought for a change in the system. From a certain point of view you could say it was the removal of a system and therefore anarchist. The removal of racist laws and segregation, in my opinion, was not a fight for the removal of our system of Government, but a the fight for a needed change within the system. For some in that fight the collapse of the system would have been ok if it was required to acheive the desired goal.
And not to beat a dead horse but in a true anarchy the Might Makes Right axiom is at it's most prevalent. Those with the strength to take your stuff will. Those with the strength to defend their stuff or that are able to not be recognized as a target will keep theirs.
Our system is in need of an enema. We need to flush out the governmental system, tax codes, and laws. They have become clogged with the weight of decades of bureaucracy. Our system is a good one and shouldn't be scrapped, just brought closer to it's framework and allowed to serve it's original purpose.
In closing, I have taken the Oath of Enlistment that states I will defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Sometimes the system can be it's own enemy. I am against a violent uprising. Our founding fathers built into the system the means to change it.
BTW: That bit with the 2 peasants in the field stacking filth is one of my all time favorite comedic bits. :w00t:
And for some fun viewing of anarchy at work watch the old Mel Gibson films The Road Warrior and Mad Max. B)
EDIT: Just to add, I must remember to hit "refresh" if there is a long period between starting a reply and actually posting. Several points have been raised since I started crafting this reply. :)
This world is not ours - Occhidiangela - 05-19-2005
Doc,May 19 2005, 10:42 AM Wrote:Ah but when that perverse culture of racism is the ruling body, standing up to it is a dicy proposition at best. And kudos to you Ghost for a good post... I like the choice of words in that line.
Do you realize that at one time, the entire state of Indiana was controlled by the Klan? And both the Senate and Congress were filled with Klansman?
Words change in time. They adapt, grow, change with location and dialect, and redefine themselves either in adaption of changing times of evolving out of necessity. As mentioned with anarch, if we went soley by the original meaning it would mean somebody that has slain a king. It went on to become a blanket term for social activism and those who resist an unfair ruling body. It doesn't have to mean an act of murder on some guy with a crown.
As for social order, some are more favourable than others. When Washington and our Founding Fathers decided enough was enough and they engaged the revolution, they acted as anarchists. In the classical sense even, as they were killing actual agents of the Crown. They toppled one social order, settled down, and attempted to create a new experiment in a newly formed conceptual democracy. While there had been democracies before, this was quite a bold experiment... Did it work? Umm... No. And it's time for another revolution most likely to throw off the current powers that be and try again.
It's still the greatest failure ever... And it's amazing that it still works as well as it does inspite of those failures.
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Doc, if some politicians in an extant power structure apply the label "Anarchist" to citizens advocating change, the politicians are deliberately overstating their case, using hyperbole and Humpty Dumpty semantics to color public discussion. That does not make a reformer or a protester an Anarchist, it makes the politician a liar, or a spin doctor. A reformer wants to alter, not discard, the current system. The Anarchist wants to do away with a system, in favor of nothing, not practical, or "something completely different." What they usually get is "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Who?
Occhi
This world is not ours - Doc - 05-19-2005
jahcs,May 19 2005, 01:29 PM Wrote:In closing, I have taken the Oath of Enlistment that states I will defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Sometimes the system can be it's own enemy. I am against a violent uprising. Our founding fathers built into the system the means to change it.
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While I have made no formal oath, nor been a part of the military service, I take much of the same stand. While I didn't go to Nam or have bits of my body blown off overseas, I have done what I hope is a service to this country. A lot of us have. Most of us will never have our work recognised as being as such, much like the common grunt, the soldier that does what needs to be done and never gets noticed.
I would, infact, die defending this country and the ideals that were presented at it's birth. I still believe in the integrity of the Constitution as a foundation. And while I am against violent uprising my self, I do not discount it as an option. Instead of bleeding in some God forsaken jungle over seas, I have bled right here on these streets at home. I have dedicated much of my life to making sure that other people get their fair slice of the American pie, a little piece of the dream. I still am. And will continue to do so for as long as humanly posible. And I have made provisions and plans that my work might continue after I die. While I might badmouth our current administration, that does not make me any less of a patriot. Because I do not practice blind obedience does not mean I am a pussy liberal terrorist sympathiser. While my views are highly controversial, even considered anti-American, silencing me only proves my point. I love this land. I was born here. I hope to die here. While I might like to go and visit other places, I know deep down that this is my home. I have invested to much of my life, my blood sweat and tears, to ever leave. While I have been tempted to move to Canada lately, it is merely a passing thought. I will do as I have always done, endure, and hope that things will get better.
This world is not ours - Occhidiangela - 05-19-2005
jahcs,May 19 2005, 12:29 PM Wrote:1. Wow, this thread continues to evolve.
2. Our system is in need of an enema. We need to flush out the governmental system, tax codes, and laws. They have become clogged with the weight of decades of bureaucracy. Our system is a good one and shouldn't be scrapped, just brought closer to it's framework and allowed to serve it's original purpose.
3. In closing, I have taken the Oath of Enlistment that states I will defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Sometimes the system can be it's own enemy. I am against a violent uprising. Our founding fathers built into the system the means to change it.
4. And for some fun viewing of anarchy at work watch the old Mel Gibson films The Road Warrior and Mad Max. B) [right][snapback]77938[/snapback][/right]
1. Evolve, or mutate? :D
2. An enema may clear the collective colon for a short while, but without a change in diet, it will clog back up rather quickly. :rolleyes:
3. My Commissioning Oath likewise, though the Posse Comitatus of 1877, and its later interpretations, generally limit actions domestic to peaceful means as citizens, rather than in uniform. (Guard excepted when Gov moblizes.) The 1933 Bonus marcher break up (MacArthur/Patton/Marshall) and some of the War on Drugs uses of the military are exceptions since the Reconstruction ended. Can't remember if the 50's school intergration was Guard or Active troops.
4. Aye, back when Mel was not a Hollywood Icon.
Occhi
This world is not ours - Doc - 05-19-2005
Occhidiangela,May 19 2005, 02:01 PM Wrote:Doc, if some politicians in an extant power structure apply the label "Anarchist" to citizens advocating change, the politicians are deliberately overstating their case, using hyperbole and Humpty Dumpty semantics to color public discussion. That does not make a reformer or a protester an Anarchist, it makes the politician a liar, or a spin doctor. A reformer wants to alter, not discard, the current system. The Anarchist wants to do away with a system, in favor of nothing, not practical, or "something completely different." What they usually get is "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." Who?
Occhi
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All anarchists are protestors. Not all protestors are anarchists.
I have no problem with breaking the law, or worse, commiting acts of "terrorism" to achieve my goals. If it comes down to it, I am all for violent civil uprising. Break out the molotov cocktails, get your crowbar, and let's go to town... But I hope it never comes to that. I have examined the depths of my soul and I know what I am capable of. If it were to come to it... I would assassinate somebody and eat a bullet just to make the change happen. That is meant as a last ditch resort mind you. It's not even something I would want to do... But I know I am capable of doing it. And I have no shame whatsoever in saying it. I have lived and nearly died by my ideals so far. No sense changing it now.
And who is to say what in anarchist wants? In the classic sense of the word, it is a man who murders the king. And while a state of anarchy could be a very bad thing, it's not the worst that can happen. I know my place in the universe. I am a part of the balance same as anybody else. I exist over here at the extreme end. My actions and what I do tips the scales. There are people at the other end, making sure it tips in their direction. What I do is overblown extremist reaction. Like it or not, I am just another cog in the system. No denying that. What I do is make the middle more tolerable. I cause unrest and disturbance for what I believe is the greater good, and I have always strived for that. I will go through any means to achieve my directive. What I do will only tip the scale for a short period of time. I know this. And even though I might hate them, dislike them, loathe them for all they stand for, I know the people at the other end of the scale ultimately serve the same master that I do. And while they are hateful horrible creatures, I need them. The world needs them. The balance needs them. And to remove them completely would destroy the balance. So it is my place to struggle against them, to lash out, to bring din and discord. I bring disorder to the current corrupt system, knowing full well that one day, a new system will spring up from it's ashes, and, no doubt, as the scales tip, corruption will sink into the new. And somebody else like me, one day in the future, will one day fight against it. This is the way of the world. Do what you can, when you can, with what you can. Even if it means picking litter up off of the highway. For every person throwing trash out, there should be somebody willing to make the world a better place and picking it up. And everything swings back and forth with neither side ever truly dominating the other.
Call me whatever you wish, whatever you will. Even that changes as the scale slides. I have gone from being a public menace to being a humanitarian and a public servent.
Before calling anybody anything though, one should figure out what they are. And which master do they serve. :mellow:
This world is not ours - jahcs - 05-19-2005
Doc,May 19 2005, 11:08 AM Wrote:While I have made no formal oath, nor been a part of the military service, I take much of the same stand. While I didn't go to Nam or have bits of my body blown off overseas, I have done what I hope is a service to this country. A lot of us have. Most of us will never have our work recognised as being as such, much like the common grunt, the soldier that does what needs to be done and never gets noticed.
I would, infact, die defending this country and the ideals that were presented at it's birth. I still believe in the integrity of the Constitution as a foundation. And while I am against violent uprising my self, I do not discount it as an option. Instead of bleeding in some God forsaken jungle over seas, I have bled right here on these streets at home. I have dedicated much of my life to making sure that other people get their fair slice of the American pie, a little piece of the dream. I still am. And will continue to do so for as long as humanly posible. And I have made provisions and plans that my work might continue after I die. While I might badmouth our current administration, that does not make me any less of a patriot. Because I do not practice blind obedience does not mean I am a pussy liberal terrorist sympathiser. While my views are highly controversial, even considered anti-American, silencing me only proves my point. I love this land. I was born here. I hope to die here. While I might like to go and visit other places, I know deep down that this is my home. I have invested to much of my life, my blood sweat and tears, to ever leave. While I have been tempted to move to Canada lately, it is merely a passing thought. I will do as I have always done, endure, and hope that things will get better.
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To survive and grow for the better we need many types of Patriot. If we don't have people who will push in a different direction once in a while we are no better than the sheep the media makes us out to be and the pigs sitting in the mudhole waiting to be slopped that politicians hope we are.
And don't move to Canada, Shadow has enough troubles. ;)
This world is not ours - Occhidiangela - 05-19-2005
Doc,May 19 2005, 01:33 PM Wrote:I bring disorder to the current corrupt system, knowing full well that one day, a new system will spring up from it's ashes, and, no doubt, as the scales tip, corruption will sink into the new.
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Ah, so you live in Phoenix now, not South Carolina? :lol:
Occhi