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Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - shoju - 08-14-2009

So according to the 3.2.2 Patch Notes

Quote:Seal of Command: This ability now chains to strike up to 2 additional targets when it is triggered by an attack.

I want to apologize now to every Terenas Lurker Tank that I now peel aggro off of in an AoE situation, and for the healer who will freak out and try and keep me up when I get the perfect storm

Think about this for a second.

Self buffed, I can get DS crits for ~4200.

With 4 mobs, that's 16,800 damage

Now add in 36% weapon damage. ~1100. Crits = ~1650

With 4 mobs, thats 4seals + 8 chains = 12 *1650 = ~19800

16,800 + 19,800 = 36,600 damage when I'm not raid buffed...


I think I just found where that rogue talent point in my Ret tree is going to end up.

FEAR ME TRASH MOBS. FEAR. ME.

Yes. I know, theoretically, The "perfect storm" shouldn't happen that often, but when we still had Seal of Blood, I died once a raid on average to a stupid Uber Crit DS proc. I believe those days are about to return.

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Taelas - 08-14-2009

Just use Seal of Vengeance/Corruption any time you want to attack single targets. It should be better than Seal of Command there anyway now, from what I've been told.

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - shoju - 08-14-2009

Quote:Just use Seal of Vengeance/Corruption any time you want to attack single targets. It should be better than Seal of Command there anyway now, from what I've been told.

Of course. SoCorr will be my boss seal, and SoComm will be the trash seal for sure. I'm excited to do AoE dps again without using the baseline seal (it bothers me more than it should to use SoR on trash/short fights). I'm a little nervous about the perfect storm becoming a real threat of dieing again, but it's a welcome change to be sure.

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Frag - 08-14-2009

Bluntly: L2P.

I'm not necessarily going to be kind about it, certainly wasn't to Conc the other day and he gets more respect than the rest of ya'll, but here it is: DONT DO IT IN THE FIRST 10 SECONDS OF THE GDM PULL AND YOU'LL LIVE AND YOU WONT PISS ME OFF (and possibly the other tanks too:whistling:)...

*ahem*

Knowing when is pretty important to melee aoe dps, especially when Bladestorm and it's ilk are the kind we're talking about. Really, that's not much different than what Enhancement Shammies went through in Vanilla. Waiting is no fun, there's no doubt of that, but it beats dying every pull.

Cheers,
~Frag:blush:

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - shoju - 08-14-2009

Quote:Bluntly: L2P.

I'm not necessarily going to be kind about it, certainly wasn't to Conc the other day and he gets more respect than the rest of ya'll, but here it is: DONT DO IT IN THE FIRST 10 SECONDS OF THE GDM PULL AND YOU'LL LIVE AND YOU WONT PISS ME OFF (and possibly the other tanks too:whistling:)...

*ahem*

Knowing when is pretty important to melee aoe dps, especially when Bladestorm and it's ilk are the kind we're talking about. Really, that's not much different than what Enhancement Shammies went through in Vanilla. Waiting is no fun, there's no doubt of that, but it beats dying every pull.

Cheers,
~Frag:blush:

Hehe. You are one of 2 tanks that I know I haven't died to the storm crits with (BM being the other). The big problem seems to be the 3rd or 4th mob on the aggro list doesn't like that I'm wailing on people and comes to beat on the elf, no matter how late in the pull it is. The big problem with this is the necessity to use DS + Cons in our standard DPS rotation. So even in a pull where it's Skull then X, and it's burn skull before X (so no one else is touching X) I still touch X by using a standard DPS rotation.

Thankfully, I wont be slitting my own wrist when I do this as well, which was part of the problem with using it in conjunction with SoB.


I take that back. I died to it once with you, but it was my own fault. After Gluth on the way to thaddius we had a giant, and a shade, and/or the pack of geists. I had been kiting and..........

forgot to shut off righteous fury....<!--fontc--><!--/fontc-->



Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Treesh - 08-14-2009

Quote:Really, that's not much different than what Enhancement Shammies went through in Vanilla. Waiting is no fun, there's no doubt of that, but it beats dying every pull.
I know a couple of shaman who would disagree with you about that.;):w00t:

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Torenia - 08-14-2009

Personally, I'm not worried about having to heal you in your spurt of uber-damage. I'll just let you die.:)

Cheers,
-Tori

Have a nice day.

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Frag - 08-14-2009

Quote:The big problem seems to be the 3rd or 4th mob on the aggro list doesn't like that I'm wailing on people and comes to beat on the elf, no matter how late in the pull it is.
That's not your fault. Really. That's us tanks being lazy and letting 'late targets' just have aoe threat moves build on them, instead of tabbing and using some of our formidable single target moves on them. There's a tension between doing than and the primary target. Depending on who is dpsing the primary they very well may pull it off in the 4-5 GCD's it takes to move around and hit each mob in the pack. Since there is more of a stigma with losing the "skull" on threat than the "circle", we tend to focus more on it.

The other day in (H)ToC with Conc along Bladestorming I had to revisit my old multi-mob tanking habits and tab-revenge, tab-shield slam, tab-heroic strike+devastate, etc... and then we had no issues as long as he waited to do it until the 2nd-3rd rotation. So if you're dying regularly tell your tanks to stop slacking and Shield of Righteousness/Shield Slam/Mangle/Rune Strike more than just the mob that's being dps'd. Good rule there is if you have ~70% in threat of it's total life pool, you can forget about it.

And, if it happens to be as bad as you think it will be (which rarely happens, bub), well, just think of DS as a repair button.

Cheers,
~Frag:P

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - shoju - 08-14-2009

Quote:That's not your fault. Really. That's us tanks being lazy and letting 'late targets' just have aoe threat moves build on them, instead of tabbing and using some of our formidable single target moves on them. There's a tension between doing than and the primary target. Depending on who is dpsing the primary they very well may pull it off in the 4-5 GCD's it takes to move around and hit each mob in the pack. Since there is more of a stigma with losing the "skull" on threat than the "circle", we tend to focus more on it.

The other day in (H)ToC with Conc along Bladestorming I had to revisit my old multi-mob tanking habits and tab-revenge, tab-shield slam, tab-heroic strike+devastate, etc... and then we had no issues as long as he waited to do it until the 2nd-3rd rotation. So if you're dying regularly tell your tanks to stop slacking and Shield of Righteousness/Shield Slam/Mangle/Rune Strike more than just the mob that's being dps'd. Good rule there is if you have ~70% in threat of it's total life pool, you can forget about it.

And, if it happens to be as bad as you think it will be (which rarely happens, bub), well, just think of DS as a repair button.

Cheers,
~Frag:P


Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not thinking it's going to be a bad thing. I'm just worried that after not having to pay attention to the DS threat, I'm going to newb it up. Even though it hasn't been that long, it's far easier to untrain than to train a behavior.

I'm am 100% in favor of this change. I can't wait to see the kind of ridiculous things I can do with it when I'm screwing around. I'm wondering things like:

1.) If DS kills the first round of 4 mobs, will the SoCom jump out to the next mobs. In a sense, Could I 1 shot 12 things in a low level situation with it?

2.) If I only have 4 targets, will the seals proc all around

1 hits 2 and 3
2 hits 3 and 4
3 hits 4 and 1
4 hits 1 and 2

In some kind of logical progression? Or would it be possible to

1 hits 2 and 3
2 hits 3 and 1
3 hits 2 and 1
4 hits 2 and 3

and end up getting Soul Crushing Seal procs that would 1 shot AoE things in the world, but Overload threat on something in a raid?

I'm really only worried about the threat problems that the 2 extra seal procs are going to give when we get into AoE situations. Other than that. I WANT MY NEW SEAL NOW:)

Who knows, maybe I will need to turn Omen back to the "You...Will...DIIIIIIIIEEEEEEE" voice to get ready for it:)


EDIT:

And thanks Tori. It warms my heart to hear you say that:)

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Kevin - 08-14-2009

Quote:And thanks Tori. It warms my heart to hear you say that:)

I'm a little nicer, you'll get a holy shock and if you can't bubble after that then you can die. :)


Of course now I need to mod my DPS spec to get seal of command again but that isn't really a bad thing. :) Though I had the pally version of demo shout that last time and after I let the warriors know about the vindication change they seemed to like not worrying about that. :)

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - shoju - 08-14-2009

Quote:I'm a little nicer, you'll get a holy shock and if you can't bubble after that then you can die. :)
Of course now I need to mod my DPS spec to get seal of command again but that isn't really a bad thing. :) Though I had the pally version of demo shout that last time and after I let the warriors know about the vindication change they seemed to like not worrying about that. :)

Thanks:)Maybe bubble, maybe LoH, who knows?

Well, If nothing else changes, I'm DEFINITELY going with 11/5/55. I love the idea of Aura Mastery as a better button for some hard modes than Dsac, and I hate having to make sure my bubble is up to use the Dsac. Not so much because of using bubble, but I like being able to hit wings when I need to hit wings, and still have a cooldown.

PLUS I was reading that Aura Mastery works with Crusader aura, and can be cast while mounted. I want to find some fool with a 310% mount that wants to race for gold:)

I have thought about vindication, and the talent drives me nuts. I have to spend 2 talents points to get a watered down version of a trainable ability. Yeah, it will be up on bosses more with a paladin, but I don't see a way to fit it currently.

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Taelas - 08-15-2009

I'd put the points in PoJ into Vindication instead -- as nice as PoJ is, it's convenience more than anything. Vindication eases up on the warriors on bosses, and it's a great soloing talent.

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Mordekhuul - 08-15-2009

Quote:I'd put the points in PoJ into Vindication instead -- as nice as PoJ is, it's convenience more than anything. Vindication eases up on the warriors on bosses, and it's a great soloing talent.

I wouldn't drop PoJ as ret. It is a DPS talent for any fight requiring movement and is just one of those pleasurable parts of being a ret paladin, really.

I really should re-do my prot build to pick up Vind though. It's really easy for a prot paladin to grab unless they are really worried about threat and need all 5 points in SotP. I probably wouldn't drop PoJ in my prot build either though, if nothing else because I kite Vezax in our 25 man kills...plus the fun factor.

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Taelas - 08-15-2009

It is exaggerated -- it doesn't really qualify as a DPS talent, even in a movement-based fight. It comes into play, yes, and as Vindication provides no DPS at all, it's strictly speaking superior for your personal DPS... though I would argue that in a raid, the convenience of Vindication -- allowing warriors or warlocks to not focus on debuffing the boss -- edges it out in raid DPS.

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Frag - 08-16-2009

Quote:It is exaggerated -- it doesn't really qualify as a DPS talent, even in a movement-based fight.
Uhhh, it's actually a huge dps talent, specifically on a movement based fight. Every second you're not on a target is 0 dps averaged into your total. It's easy to check, do a movement bossfight with the talent, then redo it with without and parse. I believe the math says that it's around 6-8s of movement a fight that Cat's Swiftness outdoes Icewalker, and PoJ is 7% faster, freeing up the boot enchant and giving an advantage to a class that doesn't have a short term speed boost/teleport/charge.

Cheers,
~FragB)

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Quark - 08-16-2009

Quote:I have thought about vindication, and the talent drives me nuts. I have to spend 2 talents points to get a watered down version of a trainable ability. Yeah, it will be up on bosses more with a paladin, but I don't see a way to fit it currently.

It should have 100% uptime, regardless of who's supplying it. Asking a warrior to Shout isn't asking much, especially with how easy it is for them to get the talent.

In Ulduar everything sans Yogg is fine without the movement speed bonus. I'm not sure that's carrying over into ToC, so far mobility seems to be pretty favored.

Quote: I believe the math says that it's around 6-8s of movement a fight that Cat's Swiftness outdoes Icewalker

Careful with this. It varies per class, and the initial person that came up with that number said 6-8s per minute. Also, it's 6-8s of movement outside melee range. Just circling around like on Grobbulus doesn't count as "movement" in this case.

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Frag - 08-16-2009

Quote:Careful with this. It varies per class, and the initial person that came up with that number said 6-8s per minute. Also, it's 6-8s of movement outside melee range. Just circling around like on Grobbulus doesn't count as "movement" in this case.
Thanks for the correction, I tried finding it on EJ/OF, but my searchfu wasn't strong right then.

Cheers,
~FragB)

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - shoju - 08-17-2009

Vindication gained a lot of ground this patch due to the fact that we have to ramp up our damage, and that outside of melee, we are.... nothing.

Having vindication means that I'm there faster, I'm starting my auto-attack ramp up faster. PoJ is almost a requirement in a Ret build anymore. We have to move with the boss and from target to target or we will lose more DPS than any other melee class.

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - Mordekhuul - 08-17-2009

Quote:Vindication gained a lot of ground this patch due to the fact that we have to ramp up our damage, and that outside of melee, we are.... nothing.

Having vindication means that I'm there faster, I'm starting my auto-attack ramp up faster. PoJ is almost a requirement in a Ret build anymore. We have to move with the boss and from target to target or we will lose more DPS than any other melee class.

Luckily prot spec has received relative buffs compared to the other tank classes, so I don't have to experience the pain of the new retribution DPS status:P

I hear the damage output is nice though, on fights with littler or no movement - buffed from before even.

Seal of Command now "cleaves" 2 extra targets.... - shoju - 08-17-2009

Quote:Luckily prot spec has received relative buffs compared to the other tank classes, so I don't have to experience the pain of the new retribution DPS status:P

I hear the damage output is nice though, on fights with littler or no movement - buffed from before even.

Well, The damage is better on stand and deliver things, and it's not like we just don't do anything on trash or heroics. The big problem comes from the the idea that they stated they wanted to make it interactive, they wanted to make it less faceroll, and they didn't. They made it irritating as hell, and that's about it.

They wanted you to ramp it up, but really, you can't even tell that you are ramping it up, becuase you do the same thing the whole time, and it's the same thing that we've been doing for a while.

And today they announced that SoCom will not proc off DS. The post makes it sound like it didnt' chain off of DS, but I know that it did on the PTR friday when I tested. I will have to check and see if there was a hotfix or something.