Quote:I find myself wanting to take up a "tough-guy" stance and saying, "hey, 'illegal-alien' is coined 'illegal' for a reason dammit!" They ILLEGALLY crossed the boarder and obtained ILLEGAL identification cards; not cool!

But on the other side of the coin, I know most of these people and they are hard workers who only want to make a buck.

Quote:Doing the right thing usually flies into the face of personal anecdote.

[...]

The illegals I know in the San Diego/Santa Barbara area usually actually drain resources, and funnel their earnings back to their families in their origin countries.

Quote:Am I wrong to find this rather amusing?

-Jester

Quote:however that was a time when America had vast expanses of land liberated from the natives

Quote:EDIT: Sorry, should have been a reply to kandrathe's post.
Hmm, I thought that was how redistribution from rich to poor happened, in reality. We (western industrial nations) have a crapload, make that CRAPLOAD more money, resources, everything than people who were unfortunate to be born in the wrong country. We (our countries) waste millions upon millions of euros/dollars by mismanagement etc. and thousands of tons of food rot before they get eaten.

Well, such is the way of the world. But to complain about illegal immigrants being a drain on society... Bleh. Yes they are, yes it's illegal, yes, there are better ways to help those people or countries less fortunate than ourselves. Just nobody does it. Or only pretends to be oh so concerned with the wellbeing of others.

Quote:I agree with Eppie here: Aren't we all assuming, rather than demonstrating, that illegal immigrants constitute a drain on the economy of the US?

I suspect that they are a slight net surplus, even in terms of tax dollars generated vs. consumed.

-Jester

Quote:I agree with Eppie here: Aren't we all assuming, rather than demonstrating, that illegal immigrants constitute a drain on the economy of the US?

I suspect that they are a slight net surplus, even in terms of tax dollars generated vs. consumed.

-Jester

Quote:Two words: Cheap Labor. The vast expanse of the american economy is built upon it. in fact it wouldn't be too cynical to say that is what america's main production was: Labor.

Quote:I find the entire notion of borders... Questionable when it comes to labour.
Namely, because they do not apply to employers - corporations.

Quote:There is a good reason why despite all the anti-illegal immigrant posturing by many political groups the real people in power (both democrat and republicans) support what these groups label "amnesty".

Two words: Cheap Labor. The vast expanse of the american economy is built upon it. in fact it wouldn't be too cynical to say that is what america's main production was: Labor. And supply and demand are at work there too. The more laborers you have the less you need to pay them.

Which brings up a large fallacy I see within kandrathe's reasoning. K has consistantly supported a strong pro-capitalist ideology yet when you get right down to it the end effect of strong anti-illegal immigration laws/enforcement is just a long way of corporate regulation. The corporations want cheap labor, immigrants (illegal or legal) want to give it to them. These laws whether they are framed as anti-illegal immigration or out in the open regulation end up having the same effect: the US saying "nope, you can't do that". The only difference in the end result is that with open regulation responsibility is placed on the corporations and with anti-illegal immigration the responsibility is placed on the laborer.

Quote:I agree with this.

Also I think many of the illegal immigrants play an important role in the economy. They work hard in jobs that nobody wants AND they do it without having the right on social benefits, because they are illegal.
I don't think that the economic impact of having illegal immigrants is so negative, probably it even is positive.
The other issue (related) is the problem of industries moving to cheap labout countries to have their work done. People complain about this, but the other possibility is bankrupcy for these big companies, and nobody benefits from that.

The point I am trying to make is that globalisation works in two ways. We in the west have more possibilities of finding the cheapest way of getting our nice things produced, but people from those porer country's also want a share of the goodies, and I can't blame them.

Quote:So are you advocating that corporations not be allowed to open branches in your country? Or that your country should open its borders to workers?

Quote:The illegals I know in the San Diego/Santa Barbara area usually actually drain resources, and funnel their earnings back to their families in their origin countries.

Quote:Labor in a Capitalist economy is also a supply and demand resouce. If you flood the supply of welders the wage drops and welding schools go out of business. If the supply dries up, suddenly welders are making a living wage and VoTec schools are producing more of them until the supply equalizes with demand.

Quote:For example, the 18th Street gang in LA hires and imports illegals to sell their drugs. These illegal immigrant drug pushers are not gang members, they just work for them. So, while the cliche is the hispanic gardener, maid, crop picker, or nanny making $2 an hour, the reality of the range of jobs held by illegal workers is more diverse and sinister.

Quote:My point is that we should target immigration leading to citizenship for people that are already able to contribute to the economy and pay their fair share or those who join the armed forces and pre-pay their debt to our country, rather than those who will languish for generations below the poverty line.

Quote:I find the entire notion of borders... Questionable when it comes to labour.

Namely, because they do not apply to employers - corporations. If I'm an employer, the demand for labour, I can open up shop anywhere - with no regard to borders. Yet, when I am an employee, the supply of labour, I am very much restricted by them. I can't move down to the states, and work there. I can't move over to India, and work there, assuming I'd want to. Yet, were I a corporation, opening up a foreign branch would just be a question of money.

Work is a two-part tango, and something about that doesn't seem wholly right.

Quote:I find the entire notion of borders... Questionable when it comes to labour.

Quote:Hi,
Then, maybe, you need to think of it a little more. Such as:

Workers in Mexico can't pick my tomatos in California -- nor can I move the fields.

Quote:The evidence appears to indicate that they are pulling their own weight. By and large, they work long hours at crappy jobs producing things for American businesses. They do this because wages in Mexico at the bottom are terrible.

What does it matter, from a libertarian perspective, that they will be poor for generations? They are not 'languishing.' They are becoming the working poor. But if they choose that, that's their choice. They make it based on their perspective, not yours.

If the argument is simply legalistic, that 'these are the rules, and they should be followed because they are the rules', then fine. But that argument is not the same as the ones you're making.

-Jester

Quote:Mexico welcomes only foreigners who will be useful to Mexican society:

* Foreigners are admitted into Mexico "according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress." (Article 32)
* Immigration officials must "ensure" that "immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents. (Article 34)
* Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets "the equilibrium of the national demographics," when foreigners are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken Mexican laws, and when "they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy." (Article 37)
* The Secretary of Governance may "suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when he determines it to be in the national interest." (Article 38)

Mexican authorities must keep track of every single person in the country:

* Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73)
* A National Population Registry keeps track of "every single individual who comprises the population of the country," and verifies each individual's identity. (Articles 85 and 86)
* A national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), and assigns each individual with a unique tracking number (Article 91).

Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:

* Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)
* Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)

Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:

* Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117)
* Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)
* Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico -- such as working with out a permit -- can also be imprisoned.

Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,

* "A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand pesos will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally." (Article 123)
* Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from Mexico instead of being imprisoned. (Article 125)
* Foreigners who "attempt against national sovereignty or security" will be deported. (Article 126)

Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law:

* A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)
* Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)

All of the above runs contrary to what Mexican leaders are demanding of the United States. The stark contrast between Mexico's immigration practices versus its American immigration preachings is telling. It gives a clear picture of the Mexican government's agenda: to have a one-way immigration relationship with the United States.

Quote:How about we just reciprocate Mexico's immigration laws for US citizens?

Mexico's Immigration Law: Let's Try It Here in the USA